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Offline Rosver  
#61 Posted : Tuesday, December 16, 2014 4:09:11 AM(UTC)
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@lume:

These technologies are not made by demons, they stole them. Demons open gates to another world (say Astlan), grab what they want, then bring it to the Abyss.

>Magic has issues since very few demons could do magic.
>Different law of Physics. So somehow the physics collaborate such that things the demon stole works fine in the Abyss? Why not say they explode instead? Or become dangerous to demons? Or turn to gas? Or infinite other such possibilities that makes what they took useless? Why such specific and rather helpful law? This is esseentially a hand wave.
>Different construction techniques. Won't work, the problem here is materials. For example many plastic would melt at high temperatures. No matter how you construct that plastic chair, since its plastic, it would melt.
>Psychic ability. The demons don't have that abilty. And if they do, they need to focus their atention to it. What if their master called them? Goodbye plastic chair?
>Fluid reality. Eh? Do you know what that means? You taken too much liberty with it. Its like X-men where genes enable mutants to control the weather or control magnetism.

Quote:
It might not work on Earth, but clearly it works in the Abyss.


Huh! A hand wave.

Well, the demons actually stole those things probably even those buildings. Therein lies the problem. the author seems to asume that you can take anything from Astlan or other world and expect it to work or stay fine in the Abyss. As I say the author blatantly ignore physics.

Lampshading it doesn't resolve the it, but then... oh well.
Offline Iume  
#62 Posted : Tuesday, December 16, 2014 5:26:33 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Rosver Go to Quoted Post
@lume:
These technologies are not made by demons, they stole them. Demons open gates to another world (say Astlan), grab what they want, then bring it to the Abyss.

I probably wasn't clear on this. I meant, just because it was stolen doesn't mean it wasn't modified. Somehow.

Originally Posted by: Rosver Go to Quoted Post
>Magic has issues since very few demons could do magic.

They may not be able to so formal spells like a wizard or like a higher-ranked demon but they still managed to do things that defy our physics. It must be something, so why not magic? It is also suggested that the energy / animus that demons are is part of magic and they can manipulate it somewhat so perhaps demons are partly magic & have an instinctive rather than conscious control over it.

Originally Posted by: Rosver Go to Quoted Post
>Different law of Physics. So somehow the physics collaborate such that things the demon stole works fine in the Abyss? Why not say they explode instead? Or become dangerous to demons? Or turn to gas? Or infinite other such possibilities that makes what they took useless? Why such specific and rather helpful law? This is esseentially a hand wave.

Oh, I know it was a hand wave, but we also know that fireballs ignite, explode, and contract in mid-air after coming out of nothing. Why can't the "laws of physics" may be made up in this realm? Although they wouldn't hold together if subjected to a logical analysis but they may also be held together by the demons' will even if it isn't a conscious effort.

Originally Posted by: Rosver Go to Quoted Post
>Different construction techniques. Won't work, the problem here is materials. For example many plastic would melt at high temperatures. No matter how you construct that plastic chair, since its plastic, it would melt.

Would this include military grade equipment with it higher tolerances? Can the matter of an item be changed as it is brought though even if the visual is unchanged?

Originally Posted by: Rosver Go to Quoted Post
>Psychic ability. The demons don't have that abilty. And if they do, they need to focus their atention to it. What if their master called them? Goodbye plastic chair?

Eh, call it psychic ability or animus ability. Both can be described as mental thought & concentration to affect a change to the world. Call it what you will. However, I do agree that a loss of attention may cause it to fail, but what if it is a case of belief = reality? It isn't easy to believe something you know to be untrue, but because the demon's accept that they can pull things over and have it safely endure, it does. However, they also know that living things can't tolerate the heat for long, so they don't. Just throwing it out there.

Originally Posted by: Rosver Go to Quoted Post
>Fluid reality. Eh? Do you know what that means? You taken too much liberty with it. Its like X-men where genes enable mutants to control the weather or control magnetism.

If there is a formal definition then nope! I was using the term "fluid reality" to describe a situation where what we perceive to be true can be changed. I was deliberately implying god-like powers, super-psychics, and non-material realities. What is a plane? How does it work? How does it differ? These are not really discussed except for the Astral Plane. Maybe the Abyss (Abyss Plane?) is a plane with its own rules and they are subject to change unlike Astlan which may be a fixed plane whose rules cannot be changed.

Originally Posted by: Rosver Go to Quoted Post
Well, the demons actually stole those things probably even those buildings. Therein lies the problem. the author seems to asume that you can take anything from Astlan or other world and expect it to work or stay fine in the Abyss. As I say the author blatantly ignore physics.

Lampshading it doesn't resolve the it, but then... oh well.


Yep! As long as the world is internally consistent I'll accept it. It doesn't have to be explained. I know that lampshading doesn't explain it, but if we have Tom notice the fact, notice that it doesn't matter, and then move on I'll be fine and consider the issue resolved because it works within the framework of the story. Of course, he could also look deeper and learn to abuse his knowledge, but there are demons from higher-tech worlds which could have done the same, but it seems didn't so... who knows?

Also, regarding the buildings... I'll have to re-read but I don't recall the buildings being stolen so much as the idea. Then you have to wonder about how the idea became reality. This is what lead me to think (while reading the story) that the Abyss is maintained & shaped by belief / will / desire more than by imports excepting living beings of course.
Offline Madfox11  
#63 Posted : Tuesday, December 16, 2014 8:57:04 AM(UTC)
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Having read many types of fantasy, the idea that the Abyss follows the same physical laws as Earth or is even a real physical place (even when to the observers it appears to be) is just not the first thing I think of. In fact, the shaping by belief / will / desire by the rules of the Abyss is actually more or less my defacto assumption of these places. The fact that the look of the Courts actually changes regularly according to the book only confirmed that idea in my mind. Loosing focus hardly matters since only the most powerful can do it and once established it remains the same until it is actively changed (and the changer usually has to overcome the power of the first shaper). Since most such influence is done subconsciously and fought by the believes of thousends of lesser beings a place usually doesn't change into D&D Limbo are Elemental Chaos (aka a place were everything changes constantly).
thanks 1 user thanked Madfox11 for this useful post.
Iume on 12/16/2014(UTC)
Offline Iume  
#64 Posted : Tuesday, December 16, 2014 9:28:20 AM(UTC)
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Thanks MadFoxII, that is much more succinct than what I had said. Yes, I too feel that the Abyss works the same way.
Offline Tizzy  
#65 Posted : Tuesday, December 16, 2014 7:16:54 PM(UTC)
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Ahh, yes, you all caught the slip up in the demon Rosver's argument! As a demon, I am an expert and looking for slip ups in arguments, as is, naturally: Rosver (hint hint as to Rosver's species)

Quote:
the author is blatantly ignoring physics.


He hadn't better be ignoring the laws of physics, that's my job! Where's my union rep!

However very precisely, as Iume, Madfoxiii have pointed out, if he's violating the laws of physics, which laws of physics is he violating?

Having traveled the Planes of Men, I can attest that the laws of physics vary greatly between them. The Outer Planes are far worse.

The Outer Planes are pretty much exclusively whatever their owner(s) wants it to be. Or so I am told.
The Planes of Men are all pretty fixed and have their own laws, their laws vary in some sort of logical order, based on where they are relative to each other. I don't know the mapping.

What I do know is that the REASON that Astlanian's can't get directly to Earth and why they see Earthlings as demons is because the laws of physics are too different.

That is actually what the back of the book implies and what I and Boggy explain to Tom.

So between Astlan and Earth, the laws of physics are sufficiently different that magic works, technology, not so much/it's unreliable (gunpowder is very dangerous) much like magic is on Earth.

As to the Abyss. It is just weird. It is not in the Planes of Men as we know it, it is not one of the Outer Planes as we know them, or if it is, we don't know who "owns it" and thus who is "Paying the mana cost to maintain it"
That's pretty much the key with the Outer Planes, to keep them stable, a tremendous amount of Animus and Mana is required (which is why few gods have their own dedicated plane--pantheons share).

The Abyss also has relatively easy access to various Planes of Men that Astlan does not. In particular, the Abyss doesn't seem to care about the physics of various Planes of Men.

Nor, for that matter do most of the Outer Planes--I assume, since Gods get to planes with different physics somehow.

Stuff that I know the origins of, and where it comes from is "borrowed" from other planes and rigged by the owner to work in the Abyss, somehow.
All I have is my pipe, and my funky furniture, which even Rosver must admit, doesn't take a lot of effort to work in the Abyss.

I can't account for everything in the Abyss, so maybe some of it is shaped energy. Particularly if it's owned by a Demon Prince...

I should also note, back to atmospheric pressure. The examples I use are for Earth and Astlan (where air pressure does vary by altitude). Not clear this is true in the Abyss.
Again, not clear that the Abyss is a planet, if it is, it's gotta be about the size of Jupiter or larger....talk about physics and gravity issues!

I will note however, altitude based air pressure is discussed/important in Books 2 and onward as you will all eventually learn.
Actually, for that matter, so is everything in this current discussions (at least thematically--not detail wise--but the questions discussed)
Offline NocandlE  
#66 Posted : Wednesday, December 17, 2014 1:17:18 PM(UTC)
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Greetings.
I would like to be considered for the beta reader list.

Thank you.
Offline Tizzy  
#67 Posted : Wednesday, December 17, 2014 2:47:08 PM(UTC)
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Technically, all requests should be signed in blood, or on the internet in red ink. But I'll take this request anyway.Angel
Offline Rosver  
#68 Posted : Thursday, December 18, 2014 6:05:05 AM(UTC)
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@lume:

Quote:
I probably wasn't clear on this. I meant, just because it was stolen doesn't mean it wasn't modified. Somehow.


No they don't. Antefalken gives a rather comprehensive explanation of how they do it. They just open a gate and took objects in. No more, no less.

Quote:
They may not be able to so formal spells like a wizard or like a higher-ranked demon but they still managed to do things that defy our physics. It must be something, so why not magic? It is also suggested that the energy / animus that demons are is part of magic and they can manipulate it somewhat so perhaps demons are partly magic & have an instinctive rather than conscious control over it.


In this world magic is manipulation of mana. Almost all of the demons can't manipulate mana. Those who do is very few and are very powerful.

Quote:
Oh, I know it was a hand wave, but we also know that fireballs ignite, explode, and contract in mid-air after coming out of nothing. Why can't the "laws of physics" may be made up in this realm? Although they wouldn't hold together if subjected to a logical analysis but they may also be held together by the demons' will even if it isn't a conscious effort.


There is a flaw in this. There are many wills. If the physics is really made up then why do the physics there very homogeneous? Since physics depends on the will why don't physics become different at the different part of the Abyss? Why don't one will to turn off gravity. Will it so that it won't stench. Or will that those buildings don't collapse (the Court is litered with it)? Why? The only reason why is because they can't will it at all.

Quote:
Would this include military grade equipment with it higher tolerances?


So there is militaty grade silk now? Or military grade wood? Don't tell me there is military grade wine? Your kidding right?

Quote:
Can the matter of an item be changed as it is brought though even if the visual is unchanged?


So the matter in the wine and other beverages have changed? Water into what? Alcohol into what? Antioxidants into what? Would the wine still be wine if that happens?

Quote:
Eh, call it psychic ability or animus ability. Both can be described as mental thought & concentration to affect a change to the world. Call it what you will. However, I do agree that a loss of attention may cause it to fail, but what if it is a case of belief = reality? It isn't easy to believe something you know to be untrue, but because the demon's accept that they can pull things over and have it safely endure, it does. However, they also know that living things can't tolerate the heat for long, so they don't. Just throwing it out there.


That is not the case here, you know that right? Your "what if" isn't how it works in the book so is invalid argument.

Quote:
If there is a formal definition then nope! I was using the term "fluid reality" to describe a situation where what we perceive to be true can be changed. I was deliberately implying god-like powers, super-psychics, and non-material realities. What is a plane? How does it work? How does it differ? These are not really discussed except for the Astral Plane. Maybe the Abyss (Abyss Plane?) is a plane with its own rules and they are subject to change unlike Astlan which may be a fixed plane whose rules cannot be changed.


Huh? Are you arguing behind the veil of ambiguity? It isn't wrong because it has no defined meaning? It has no formal definition so it is correct? What kind of argument is that?

If it was Godlike powers, then God! why don't they will a chair appear instead of stealing it. Why don't they wil fresher air. Why don't they will the streets to be clean. Why don't they will anything? Answer? Because they can't.

Quote:
Yep! As long as the world is internally consistent I'll accept it. It doesn't have to be explained. I know that lampshading doesn't explain it, but if we have Tom notice the fact, notice that it doesn't matter, and then move on I'll be fine and consider the issue resolved because it works within the framework of the story. Of course, he could also look deeper and learn to abuse his knowledge, but there are demons from higher-tech worlds which could have done the same, but it seems didn't so... who knows?


You are contradicting yourself. You say you'll accept it as long as the world is internally consisitent; but you agree in lampshading. Lampshading is a deliberate spotlighting of inconsistencies then just moving on without explaining it. Often used humorously. Here is a rather more extensive definition of it:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwi...hp/Main/LampshadeHanging

If the author lampshade something then it is accepted that the world is inconsistent and implausible. Since you only accept if the world is consistent, then a work that lampshades should not be acceptable to you.

@Madfox:

The Court changes then confirmed that? Don't you know that cities constantantly changes? Don't think that New York City looks the same now as it was hundred years ago? Do City of London in 19th century the same City of London now? Or do you think that every city would remain the same and idenitical through the ages for eternity?

Things constantly changes. It is not surprising that The Court changes... because it should. It is the way things work. I would have been more astounded if The Court of Chaos has remain the same since its founding than finding it changing.

@lume

I don't really understand how the incredulity of what Madfox is saying escape your attention.

@Tizzy

If what you say was true, then the things they stole should have not worked. Electronics for example uses the physics (electicity, magnetism, light, capacitance, induction, etc.). The piano strings create their sound due to vibrations and the physics that go with it. These things are very much calibrated to the physics they work in. You know how things greatly change when small variations, like how the tone of the piano would change if the tension of the string is changed by a few Nestons. If physics don't work the same way in the Abyss, then these devices should not work at all because the technology that drives them no longer works.

Just think. How would things change if instead of F=ma its F=1.5ma? Think of how it would have change engineering?

"The Abyss also has relatively easy access to various Planes of Men that Astlan does not. In particular, the Abyss doesn't seem to care about the physics of various Planes of Men."

Then why do humans in Astlan need to protect themselves from the heat? Somehow the law of physics apply to them but not to a glass of wine? If the temperature is uncomfortable for a person, then it is not good for the wine, as wine masters would say. If want example of violation of internal physics this should be it.

And I think you would come with a more complicated explanation for this. *sigh*

I mean... come on people. You can't justify the unjustifiable. Why can't you accept that the logic is faulty?

Edited by user Thursday, December 18, 2014 6:38:53 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline Iume  
#69 Posted : Thursday, December 18, 2014 9:07:03 AM(UTC)
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Rosver, you are coming across to me as quite angry and responding without taking the time to think things through. I have a hypothesis with musings & evidence and a conclusion that I can present, but it is rather long so if you promise to take a moment to write down your response, shelve it, come back after a few hours and re-read & edit before responding, will you do so?
Offline Madfox11  
#70 Posted : Thursday, December 18, 2014 9:24:50 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Rosver Go to Quoted Post
@Madfox:

The Court changes then confirmed that? Don't you know that cities constantantly changes? Don't think that New York City looks the same now as it was hundred years ago? Do City of London in 19th century the same City of London now? Or do you think that every city would remain the same and idenitical through the ages for eternity?

Things constantly changes. It is not surprising that The Court changes... because it should. It is the way things work. I would have been more astounded if The Court of Chaos has remain the same since its founding than finding it changing.



Yeez, of course I know cities change. Nothing stays the same forever. Although, you might want to visit some of those quint medieval towns in Europe, on the outside they haven't actually changed that much (except for being cleaner) ;) A regular visitor though would hardly notice the changes since they tend to be relatively slow and it was a regular visitor who noted how the Courts of Chaos looked this time around.

Anyway, I personally don't care all that much about these kind of details in a Fantasy world ingrained in magic where our laws of physics clearly do not apply and even less when they have no impact on the story. As I said in an earlier post, trying to explain things often makes it worse by reminding the reader the situation is odd, by adding more questions than you actually answer, by adding something even more unbelievable and by confusing the reader needlessly with details that have nothing to do with the story. No point in going in circles with you about it even though I am the first to say I like the occassional endless discusions about such things ;)

As for logic, we are debating about something that is illogical at its core and has no base on our own reality. Besides, even in our own real world things have been found to be true that would be considered weird and illogical before and it takes dozens of people and years of work to provide the asnwers you seek. Each and every reader/viewer has their own level at which point their suspension of disbelief gets jarred. Mine lies obviously different from yours ;)

Edited by user Thursday, December 18, 2014 9:36:29 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline Rosver  
#71 Posted : Thursday, December 18, 2014 11:12:23 AM(UTC)
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@lume

I'm frutrated! Brick wall Especially when you say that lampshading makes things consistent when that is not what lampshading do. It also seems that you are ganging on me. Tizzy is giving a "hint hint' now.

I would read what you will write, but then I guess I would just end criticizing it. I try to answer calmly and give contributions instead.

@Madfox

Those towns are preserved. There are laws against doing drastic changes there. There are even laws against building modern constructs there. The Court of Chaos obviously doesn't have such laws. I don't even think they have laws there. Without any opposition against change, those demons would have make the cityscape change all the time.

Well, I doesn't mind it that much too but don't think that they don't have impact to the story. Think of X-men. It was mutant genes that give them those powers. We know that genes don't do that (control the weather, pffft!). Now think if, it was more 'realistic' then these mutants wouldn't exists and no more X-men. These details have great impact and are vital, even if they are wrong. The story would not have existed without these details.

I know its illogical but people here is trying to justify them so much. So why don't you just accept that it is illogical? Why make excuses?

Quote:
Besides, even in our own real world things have been found to be true that would be considered weird and illogical before and it takes dozens of people and years of work to provide the asnwers you seek.


Wait man. It is simple observation. It don't need much knowledge to know that silk would be ruined if exposed to high temperatures. That the piano would be damaged if put close to a radiator. And that people will die of heatstroke. Then whe are these things are not happening here?It is odd. We don't need to be philosophical for this.

And my suspension of disbelief isn't jarred yet. I enjoyed it, haven't I? And have read the book many many times. Again and again and again. And I still like it, and maybe that is why I see such things (there is lots). But there is nothing wrong to pointing out the flaw especially when we talk about the book itself.

I said before that I hope that something good comes from this. In X-men we get super cool chracters like Wolverine and powers too. How about here? What to expect with all this? It seems to be of no purpose in book 1. I do hope something would come out of it in book2. The author break physics so he must have a plan or something for it. But what is it?

Edited by user Thursday, December 18, 2014 12:18:10 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline Korwin  
#72 Posted : Thursday, December 18, 2014 12:27:11 PM(UTC)
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Signature in Red Blood

Edited by user Thursday, December 18, 2014 12:28:05 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline Iume  
#73 Posted : Thursday, December 18, 2014 12:33:46 PM(UTC)
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Okay, there is a bit about lampshading down below, but first...

Let us start from the assumption that the story's world is in fact possible within its own laws. From that we see thatit doesn't matter that someone say is impossible. We will need to accept the book as empirical evidence which shows that wine, wood, plastics, metals, et cetera work / survive in the Abyss. Yes Earth physics & yes Astlan physics would give a big ol' NOPE to the Abyss, but it works.

Therefore we must consider the means by which something that life outside of the Abyss says is impossible is possible.

Second, it is fantasy. It doesn't have to conform to our reality. The rules of the story appear to be consistent in their reality, so hey it works. Then, if we accept the realm works & the rules are consistent then what are the rules that can combine physics + magic?

Now, this next part is a bit of ramble and not 100% reviewed, so feel free skip down to the section listing rules #1, #2, #3 where I state the rules that I believe govern this book. This next section is bit long to nitpick so if you want to say no then please address in the context of the rules (#1, #2, #3) directly and the evidence from the book that disproves the rules.

***
Wall of text!


Therefore the author can adopt / use the following rules:
#1 - Sufficient concentrations or applications of animus can affect reality
#2 - The application of animus does not have to be consciously controlled
#3 - Contradictory applications of animus are resolved by the majority "concentration" which is expressed as animus per volume directed towards a certain goal.

Let us assumes this means the mechanism of resolving conflict is "If two set of animus partially overlap there intersection is dominated by the winner while animus outside the intersection is not."

Applying these rules makes it possible for stolen items to be viable in the Abyss. This is what I trying to aim for when I said "fluid reality" or whatever the correct term is.

***

Side arguments that don't affect the main

Lampshading
---

Pointless nitpicks - Fluid Reality


Edit: Since I haven't signed up yet... here is a pint of Rosver blood. Can I use it sign myself up for the beta? Whistle

Edited by user Thursday, December 18, 2014 12:41:31 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline Tizzy  
#74 Posted : Thursday, December 18, 2014 2:48:47 PM(UTC)
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OOOOHHHH!!!

I love those spoiler buttons, I didn't know you could do that!

That's impossible! You are breaking the laws of forum!

Applause

Great long post. I have to come back to it and read it in detail, those buttons mean it is a LOT longer than I thought.

I will get back to this tonight when I can read it in detail. Can't wait!

Tizzy!
Offline Rosver  
#75 Posted : Thursday, December 18, 2014 4:05:38 PM(UTC)
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@lume:

Thanks for bearing my rudeness and hot headedness. I've been inconsiderate.

Well, I've read what you writen. Quite long!

First though, the maleability of the Courts. There might be a more simpler explanation. They are demons. They are strong, powerful, and could just steal materials anywhere. They number of these demons could do a lot of renovaton in a moment. It might not be because the area is maleable because of concentration of magic. It is because these demons is powerful enough that they can rend a human body in moments, break walls and bend inches thick metals all with just their bare hands.

Af for Tom and the ship, I thought it was a fault! The wood should have chared when Tom become the living flame.

Quote:
So maybe animus manipulation can make wood, plastic, alcohol, et cetera work in the Abyss by willpower or by the equivalent to willpower saying "Do not be affected".


However, Also connected to point #1, from Animus and Mana account in the book (after chapter 54 in my copy):

Quote:
Animus is the "energy of life" it is roughly speaking the spirit or soul, the "living" part of all living creatures. All things that are alive have animus. Animus inundates every cell and the very molecular and genetic structure of living creatures. It is what separates organic compounds from living organisms. When a creature dies, the animus leaves the cells of its body and either disperses into the world around or in the case of high animus concentrations, may travel to other locations or planes.


Animus is strongly associated with the living. Since wood, plastic, alcohol, et cetera aren't living they can't hold animus, unless object linked, and object links isn't suppose to do what you say it do.

Point #2. In Animages and Animagic account (after chapter 64 in my copy):

Quote:
Animages are individuals who use their minds to manipulate their own personal animus. Using their animus, they can manipulate mana, and hence the elements and the physical world around them. For all practical purposes, animages are individuals who simply need concentrate in the proper manner to achieve magic or spell-like effects.


There are other part that indicates that manipulating animus requires constant mental effort and has no effect otherwise. Also in the same account:

Quote:
Actually, this is a slight over simplification. In actual point of fact, an animage cannot simply will something to happen; rather he or she must manipulate his or her animus in such a way as to cause mana to behave in the desired manner.


So they just can't do the equivalent to willpower saying "Do not be affected" as you so stated. Also, higher up from your quote about Tom and the ship:

Quote:
Maelen blinked suddenly realizing the problem. Edwyrd had so far contained his flame so that he did no damage to the deck or rail beneath and beside him. As he escalated his flame, that was no longer the case. Maelen shouted.


There is quite a more banal explanation as to why. He might be containing the heat so that it won't radiate and affect the wood.

Point #3 is moot as 1 an 2 isn't viable.

Also as I stated before, there is very few demon who can manipulate mana and even rarer, it seems, one that manipulates animus like Tom.


Lampshading

You said that the world has to be internally consistent. That is it must follow it own rules.

However you say:

Quote:
I know that lampshading doesn't explain it, but if we have Tom notice the fact, notice that it doesn't matter, and then move on I'll be fine and consider the issue resolved because it works within the framework of the story


Lampshading doesn't explain the inconsistency, the reason why, therefore the world is still inconsistent. Just because a character notice that it doesn't matter doesn't means its consistent. Also, the issue here do matters. It is quite prevalent in the book and has social significance.

Also you're quote is quite incomplete and is taken out of context. The whole quote is:

Quote:
Lampshade Hanging is the writers' trick of dealing with any element of the story that threatens the audience's Willing Suspension of Disbelief, whether a very implausible plot development, or a particularly blatant use of a trope, by calling attention to it and simply moving on.


Also adding the second pharagraph:

Quote:
The reason for this counter-intuitive strategy is two-fold. First, it assures the audience that the author is aware of the implausible plot development that just happened, and that they aren't trying to slip something past the audience. Second, it assures the audience that the world of the story is like Real Life: what's implausible for you or me is just as implausible for these characters, and just as likely to provoke an incredulous response.


Also, your A and B interpretation doesn't apply. Not A because the issue here is not about presentation. You can change how this things are presented, say not putting too much attention to it, or use purple prose; the inconsistency would still be there.

And not B because the issue is not about the character. It is about the objects found in the Abyss. Be the characters present or not, the issue remains.


Fluid reality

Your difinition of fluid reality is a bit different from mine.

Fluid reality comes from a very weird Quantum Theory regarding subatomic particles and their properties. On example, you know that they act like particles at some instance and waves in another. The theory is that they have two realities, one is the particle, and the other one is the wave. It settles into one of the two realities if we observed it and the nature of the observation dictates the outcome. And the outcomes are mighty weird.

Think of this like this, you have a box that contains candy you brought from a store. There are many possiblities of what candy it contains, based on what the store sells. In quantum theory, the box contains all realities, all the kind of the candies. The contents of the box only settle to one of the reality or candy once you open it and observe what is inside.

That is very weird. It means that any part of the our world we are not observing doesn't settle into a reality, or is fluid. It is all the realities but none of the realities at the same time. It only settle down to single reality once we observe it. In another sense, the reality we know exist because we observe it. Once we are not observing it, it fails to exist.

Then there is this mystical notion like yours. Since observation dictates the outcome of reality, we can somehow harness our will to change reality.

Did anyone else get it? I don't. It just so weird. It make my head hurt.

@Tizzy

I think it is in the [BB/] button before the spell check. It is listed there.

Edited by user Thursday, December 18, 2014 4:14:14 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline Iume  
#76 Posted : Thursday, December 18, 2014 6:34:45 PM(UTC)
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Point #1


So, we have the original #1 thrown out. It is is not true, but we can replace it with: "Although the application of willpower cannot use animus to perform wishes, it can achieve the effects of such through the application of knowledge and enough animus." It is roughly the same as the original version of #1 in that animus effects a changes, but we must accept that the mechanism is different and hurdles greater.

Point #2
I disagree that #2 needs to be tossed.



With this I would say that #2 is still possible, but with the amendment that initiating requires conscious control but can be maintained without.

Point #3
If we take the revised point #1 & point #2 then I would #3 is still possible. The mechanisms have changed and limits introduced, but it still supports the demons being able to reshape reality with enough effort. All we added was the need for know-how.

Because animus is controlled by willpower (generated by just living things) used to control mana rather than ritual (wizards) doesn't mean it can't affect non-living things. It means animus can't be contained within or generated by non-living, but it can be affected through a manipulation of the elements via mana. This is nothing to do with object links. I'm just a low-grade, constant effect stemming from an set & forget that keeps items in shape.

Lampshading
Hm. You are right. But I've also heard / seen it used as I described. The term has existed prior to TVTropes and I don't know how complete or accurate they are though it looks sound. Maybe this is just a case of an evolving definition? Either way, I consider it settled. Wrong term was used.

I do however think that the author needs to address it, but not through a revision of the rules as you would suggest Rosver. Just imagine Book 2. Tom tries to bring stuff over and it fails because, hey: Abyss! So he tries to figure out why the courts don't have this problem. Not sure how the author will address it, but yeah it needs to be addressed.


Fluid Reality
Yeah, totally different definition from mine. Nothing to do with observation of reality collapsing possibilities into a single reality.

In my case, imagine a bowl of water with tiny creatures living inside. To them the water is all of existence and nothing, not even the bowl holding the water, exists for them. The bowl is very bad analogy for physics. It defines that shape of water is the shape of the bowl. To the people living in the water their realm is govern by this shape and allow rules they come up with must conform to this fact. But we as outside observers can take this water and pour it into another container, but of a different shape. Suddenly the rules of the water people don't work. They must describe this new reality. Some rules are still the same such as how water works, but others are different such as how shape is defined. Now scale this down so only parts of the water can be manipulated to change shape. If the shape is reality then this is "fluid" reality. If there is another term to describe this I'd like to know.

"Magic" is an ability to change the shape of the water on a very localized scale. Demons with their huge reservoirs of animus can make bigger changes and affect large areas. The Abyss is more like an open body of water: easily shaped from within and Astlan is more like a frozen block of ice: not so easily shaped from within.

Shit… I'm not explaining this very well am I? Either way, can we consider Lampshading & Fluid Reality concluded?
Offline Rosver  
#77 Posted : Friday, December 19, 2014 12:24:58 AM(UTC)
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First I think it should be mana, not animus that influences reality. It was explained in the book.

Why things changes so fast in the Abyss can be explained by simple saying that the changes is aesthetic/appearance only. It is not reconstruction but redecoration. The Court actually seems to be in constant disrepair, which should not be if it is constantly reconstructed. The buildings are still there (find Trump Tower) but the appearance/aesthetic constanly changes to their whim. And there is also such things as vandalism that demons seems to enjoy to do.

As to how Tom flies, it is explained in that chpater and that it is because he has wings:

Quote:
...He lost al­ti­tude. Quickly he tried flap­ping his wings to bring himself back up to Boggy. This didn't work, in fact he began to fall even more. Un­less he could get the proper rhythm, his wings wouldn't sup­port his mas­sive bulk. ...


I know the physics means it shouldn't work. You could just add it to the list of how law of physics is broken.

As for how Tom contain heat, Magic. Tom is a natural Pyromaster. In Animages and Animagic account of the boook, it says.

Quote:
Py­ro­mas­tery is the study of the el­e­ment of Fire in its as­pects of fire, light, and heat.


In effect, Tom uses his pyromastery skills to control the flow of heat. He just lapsed at times and didn't contain his flame/heat causing the wood to char.

Also, his shapeshifting is not mana manipulation.

And you also essentially say that they used magic (mana manipulation) to maintain things. This is very similar to Tizzy saying that they used airconditioning. And I said before, magic has issues since very few demons could do magic. It is also not set and forget thing. There are varous indications in the book that a spell casted gradually erode (Jenn binding Exador's scout, Lenamare's sheild dome) though there seems to be way that these can be made more permanent (Jenn breaking stone to make her binding last long, the lock spell on the book).

Even if that is possible, there is still a hiccup. When Antefalken was investigating Tom's cave has this:

"By this point, An­te­falken had reached the main area of the cave. The fur­nish­ings weren't much, mostly hand carved, lit­er­ally. Styl­is­ti­cally he'd seen bet­ter, but O.K. for a first try. The chair and table were func­tional, the book­shelves too, al­though empty. No real sign of any Ast­lan­ian ma­te­ri­als; ei­ther this Tom wasn't able to do phys­i­cal trans­port or hadn't fig­ured out how yet. Not sur­pris­ing, not many demons could. The ma­jor­ity of fours could man­age some­thing though, maybe not much, but at least small things."

Tom's cave is outside the Court so preserving magic would not be there, but Antefalken expect Tom to just bring things in, and he adivices such things as silk. Using magic to change reality in the Court of Chaos would not compensate for this as Tom's cave in not in the Court of Chaos.

At that, point #1 still does not stand.

The living flame isn't really about manipulating mana. According to Maelen:

Quote:
"True union, the Liv­ing Flame was the ul­ti­mate join­ing of Anima and the El­e­ment of Fire."


"he learns that demons don't have to consciously maintain a shape once they know how." - not true, they had to conciously maintain their shape even if they know how. This was a difficulty Tom have because simple distraction would make him turn back to demon form. Rupert also has this, he once relaxed in Tom's presence and started to loose his human shape, in chapter 31:

Quote:
...He reached up to scratch his head which had been itch­ing him all morn­ing, and felt a slight swelling above his tem­ple. He was slightly sur­prised, ap­par­ently he'd re­laxed more last night than he'd thought. ...


Clearly, they can't auto-maintain it as you say.

There are indicated ways that spell would remain more permanent after the spell is cast. One is when Jenn bind Exador's scout. She breaks a rock to make it last longer. Another and more effective one is the unknown lock spell used in the contested book. It has lasted for centuries which indicates that a powerful wizzard uses a rather powerful technique.

The only problem I could see is that, there are very few demons who could do magic. Exador is one of them and I don't think that he is one that would cast the preserving spell on clothes so that those class two demons could have their dress ups or for Tizzy and others to havetheirs wine. Just think tedious would that be.

So, though the revised point #2 is possible, it is not viable.

Point 3 is still in jeopardy mostly because of viability.



Lampshading

The application you sought out is in this part of the quote:

Quote:
...or a particularly blatant use of a trope,...


Tropes like Mary Sues (an annoyingly perfect character), McGuffin (a element to move the plot forward but otherwise has no other purpose) and Made of Explodium (everything just seems to explode).


Fluid reality

Nah! I don't want my head to ache.

Yeah lets conclude it.
Offline Iume  
#78 Posted : Friday, December 19, 2014 1:21:02 AM(UTC)
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Point #1
Hm. I get what you are saying about the Abyss, and I do not have any concrete evidence that says wild surges rather than changes in aesthetic/appearance the case. There simply isn't much detail. It is just that when I read Chapter 38 I get the impression that the look is more like a skin / theme that is quickly & easily switched. It may take Talarius & Book 2 to get more detail. I believed what the author describes was not merely illusion, but a physical manifestation. Like a coffee shop can become a saloon. Same location, same owner, same products for sale but the shape of the building is very different. Different "materials", different decor, different construction, but still recognizable as being that same building. This is something that goes beyond just redecoration.

Just… not enough evidence.

Point #2
Have to concede.

Oddly the courts are populated by a lot of 2s & 3s and they can use what is there. But I still feel that all demons manipulate mana to a degree, but perhaps without fine control or control over complex stuff. Like a consumer using a product without knowing how it is made or work. Input -> Black Box -> Output. 4s & up could establish something in the fabric of the Abyss's reality (no evidence, just speculating in case evidence to support pops up) that allows it or something that is part of the current settings.

Edited by user Friday, December 19, 2014 1:24:32 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline Tizzy  
#79 Posted : Friday, December 19, 2014 3:03:22 AM(UTC)
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Whew, my brain went out just reading all that. Way beyond my pay grade to say much intelligent.

But I can make some observations:

have you looked at the pictures of me? if Tom's flying is questionable under your traditional physics, mine is down right impossible.
I know more, but am not saying. Telling people what can and can't be done in advance, often limits what they can and can not do.

As T-A-G and I have pointed out, a lot of the courts are facades and shared illusion. And what I mean by this is rather complex to detail here and now.
But both reality and illusion do change frequently. However, even so, it's more like rotation. There are only so many archetypes for buildings and styles.
Each building or group of building has so many permutations. Demons cycle them in and out like a museum does art exhibits.

And things do just move around, your favorite bar might move to the other side of town over night and change it's appearance. If you've been around long enough, you'll have seen all the variations of each building, new variations aren't popping up that often.

What really makes it change "a lot" is that all of the buildings tend to change or move randomly, with only somewhat irregular coordination. It's the multitude of possible combinations that really makes the city chaotic seeming. No single building or group of buildings have that many appearances, but when a building changes and the one next to it on the right also changes, and the one on the left swaps out with something else altogether, the net result can be a lot of change.



---------------below gets into dangerous stuff that you haven't yet discussed, but is needed to answer some of the questions you've raised so it's getting into spoiler territory-----------------------------------------------------------------------





Now, the one big thing you guys are missing here; and seriously I can't believe you are missing this, because having read/dictated book II, it is something that's bugging Tom.

Economics, trade, money.

Yes there is lots of tribalism, bullying etc. But really most of the smaller demons get that from wizards.

The demon princes have learned that fear and terror of their might only goes so far; and that a combination of carrots and sticks help.

So the fear/terror/torture is the stick, the carrots are rewards for service, good behavior. These rewards are "trinkets" from other worlds, magic items, spells, favors for service (the maybe someday coming Antefalken short stories--Tales of the Demon Bard--or something like that, will focus on this in a lot of detail).

So, smaller demons have all these things, they accumulate them over centuries of toil to the more powerful demons who can provide these things.

The button below really is a sort of spoiler; so don't read it if you don't want a mystery of book 1 (somewhat) 2 (definitely) answered now.



Anyway, you notice that there is also money in the Abyss. There is robust trade. Money is issued under the imprint of the Co-Factors (one side of the coins are Sammael, the other Lillith) The banking system is very crude, but the coins are basic barter units to value the 'trinkets' and 'artifacts' provided by the greater demons to their servants.


So--lampshading---forget your tropes. key rules that can be extract from what T-A-G has said on this forum.

1) Observations are made from different points of view.
A) Different points of view will explain things differently.
B) Maelen will explain what he sees based on what he knows.
C) Jenn/Gastrope' will explain based on their knowledge
D) Tom will explain based on his knowledge or lack thereof.
E) I will just tell you the unvarnished truth, how it is, what's real and what's not.
2) For what Tom sees and notes.
A) He's 16, yes a very bright/mature 16 year old but kids are often just observing something and shrugging
B) He's a total book nerd, he's read a lot of Fantasy and Science Fiction, so if he sees something that's consistent with Fantasy or D&D, he just says "OK"
C) At many points he's under duress/stress/ and maybe in a bit of shock, so he may not be fulling processing things, and when he does it's probably in a more narcistict way, revolving around himself, rather than an objective scientist sort of way.
3) T-A-G has been very explicit that there is some weird shit going on and that he knows this, it's intentional, and no he may not explain it all, at least not until book 36.

Edited by user Friday, December 19, 2014 3:04:28 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline Tizzy  
#80 Posted : Friday, December 19, 2014 3:14:30 AM(UTC)
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Oh...and why do Boggy and I start new demons out in caves? As Antefalken asks? Why don't we send them to the courts?

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